Comments on: China’s Immigration Administration Out of Whack with International Norms http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html Fri, 09 Jan 2009 14:12:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: Cyrille http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html/comment-page-1#comment-23280 Cyrille Sun, 05 Oct 2008 05:11:28 +0000 http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html#comment-23280 Hello everybody, I need help from this discussion board. I worked in china for sometimes and now back in canada (i am canadian) i am require to provide a “no criminal offense certificate” from a local chine police authority. Where to apply for such a document? Hello everybody,

I need help from this discussion board. I worked in china for sometimes and now back in canada (i am canadian) i am require to provide a “no criminal offense certificate” from a local chine police authority. Where to apply for such a document?

]]> By: Stephen Ng http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html/comment-page-1#comment-23206 Stephen Ng Mon, 15 Sep 2008 04:54:42 +0000 http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html#comment-23206 Thanks for the timely article. I am a Malaysian businessman who sources and trades with products of all sorts in Asia. It was not my intention to live or work in China, although having a rented apartment in China do make my travel easy as I don't need to carry a big luggage with me for my business trips to China, let alone expensive hotel bills. In fact, I would love to have an apartment in every port that I frequent. However, the recent clamp down on business visa and having to resort to use of tourist visas makes extremely hard as it wasn't the length of stay that I need but the frequency of travel and Malaysia being singled out as one of the countries where one need to go all the way home to get a China visa is tough, especially when my travel takes me all the way to UK, and Africa. The cost of travelling back to Malaysia for a China visa is killing me. What can the Chinese government do for a genuine businessman and traveller like me? The immigration infrastructure sure needs fixing. Thanks for the timely article. I am a Malaysian businessman who sources and trades with products of all sorts in Asia. It was not my intention to live or work in China, although having a rented apartment in China do make my travel easy as I don’t need to carry a big luggage with me for my business trips to China, let alone expensive hotel bills. In fact, I would love to have an apartment in every port that I frequent. However, the recent clamp down on business visa and having to resort to use of tourist visas makes extremely hard as it wasn’t the length of stay that I need but the frequency of travel and Malaysia being singled out as one of the countries where one need to go all the way home to get a China visa is tough, especially when my travel takes me all the way to UK, and Africa. The cost of travelling back to Malaysia for a China visa is killing me. What can the Chinese government do for a genuine businessman and traveller like me? The immigration infrastructure sure needs fixing.

]]> By: scholar http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html/comment-page-1#comment-23204 scholar Sat, 13 Sep 2008 07:02:48 +0000 http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html#comment-23204 You should have seen how the U.S Consulate in Toronto, Canada treated all of us at the Green Card processing session. Herding and rudely barking at us through megaphones! You'd think we were all criminals or asylum refugees from some 3rd world country, even though we all were polite and respectful. Gave me 10 days to get police records for all my family members having lived in various parts of the world, OR ELSE lose our Green Card privilege. Just about told this guy to shove it. Only Canadians would tolerate this, and I in retrospect, was shamefully one of them! Got my Green Card but believe it or not it's actually not easy to give it back (I tried). You should have seen how the U.S Consulate in Toronto, Canada treated all of us at the Green Card processing session. Herding and rudely barking at us through megaphones! You’d think we were all criminals or asylum refugees from some 3rd world country, even though we all were polite and respectful. Gave me 10 days to get police records for all my family members having lived in various parts of the world, OR ELSE lose our Green Card privilege. Just about told this guy to shove it. Only Canadians would tolerate this, and I in retrospect, was shamefully one of them! Got my Green Card but believe it or not it’s actually not easy to give it back (I tried).

]]> By: Chris Devonshire-Ellis http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html/comment-page-1#comment-23197 Chris Devonshire-Ellis Mon, 08 Sep 2008 08:23:08 +0000 http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html#comment-23197 Thanks for your comments. I think the main beef is that there appears to have been no consultation about the regulations concerning this (fair enough point about the US though) - a situation which also applies to China internally. There appears little discussion on the matter between the Ministry of Commerce (who want FDI) the PSB (concerned about security) and Immigration (who have to carry the can). That's not entirely helpful - and leads to mass confusion. Thanks for your comments. I think the main beef is that there appears to have been no consultation about the regulations concerning this (fair enough point about the US though) - a situation which also applies to China internally. There appears little discussion on the matter between the Ministry of Commerce (who want FDI) the PSB (concerned about security) and Immigration (who have to carry the can). That’s not entirely helpful - and leads to mass confusion.

]]> By: K Hiller http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html/comment-page-1#comment-23194 K Hiller Sun, 07 Sep 2008 20:05:45 +0000 http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html#comment-23194 Before we go too far in demonizing the Chinese government and accusing them of setting visa requirements without consulting other nations, let's take a look at one of the requirements for immigrant visas to the USA. What follows is a direct quotation from Form OF-171 Immigrant Visa Information Sheet: "Notarial Police Certificate. Applicants aged 16 or older must submit this form for all countries in which the applicant has resided for one year or more and wherever the applicant has been living for six months prior to the interview since attaining the age of 16. Police certificates are only valid for one year." Do you think that the Department of Homeland Security or the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services consulted with all other countries around the world before setting that requirement (or at least with those countries who are not on the visa waiver program)? And note that U.S. immigrant visa (IV) applicants need to get police certificates from ALL countries they levied in after they were 16, and that the certificates can not be more than a year old. So if someone applying for an IV lived outside his home country for a couple years 5 years ago, and even if he had the werewithal to sercure a police certificate from that country before retuning home 5 years ago, he would still need to get another one because the certificate is only valid for one year! I think that these U.S. visa requirements are very stringent and do NOT take into account the ease or difficulty of obtaining the required documents in countries around the world. So I don't think we can single out the Chinese government, accusing them of behaving radically different from all other governments. I also think that the statement that China's hukou system is unique is a sweeoing generalization. Such a system used to exist in the Soviet Union and persisted at least into the first decade after the break up; I'm not sure whether it still holds there today. But I would imagine that there are other countries with similar administrative systems. Before we go too far in demonizing the Chinese government and accusing them of setting visa requirements without consulting other nations, let’s take a look at one of the requirements for immigrant visas to the USA. What follows is a direct quotation from Form OF-171 Immigrant Visa Information Sheet:
“Notarial Police Certificate. Applicants aged 16 or older must submit this form for all countries in which the applicant has resided for one year or more and wherever the applicant has been living for six months prior to the interview since attaining the age of 16. Police certificates are only valid for one year.”

Do you think that the Department of Homeland Security or the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services consulted with all other countries around the world before setting that requirement (or at least with those countries who are not on the visa waiver program)? And note that U.S. immigrant visa (IV) applicants need to get police certificates from ALL countries they levied in after they were 16, and that the certificates can not be more than a year old. So if someone applying for an IV lived outside his home country for a couple years 5 years ago, and even if he had the werewithal to sercure a police certificate from that country before retuning home 5 years ago, he would still need to get another one because the certificate is only valid for one year!

I think that these U.S. visa requirements are very stringent and do NOT take into account the ease or difficulty of obtaining the required documents in countries around the world. So I don’t think we can single out the Chinese government, accusing them of behaving radically different from all other governments. I also think that the statement that China’s hukou system is unique is a sweeoing generalization. Such a system used to exist in the Soviet Union and persisted at least into the first decade after the break up; I’m not sure whether it still holds there today. But I would imagine that there are other countries with similar administrative systems.

]]> By: Dr. Robert Lynn Ogden http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html/comment-page-1#comment-23193 Dr. Robert Lynn Ogden Sun, 07 Sep 2008 11:00:10 +0000 http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html#comment-23193 The Canadian system facilitates this kind of criminal record check and is quite simple if you have lived in your home country: You go to the nearest Royal Canadian Mounted Police [RCMP] or Provincial Police Station in Quebec and Ontario and request a one page form for a criminal record check... You complete it and and pay your CAD $26.00 or CAD $27.00 - wait 30 days and you can pick it up. A family member can under certain circumstances also pick it up on your behalf with authorization. There is no question that it is not convenient to get one but it is possible. I have to smile when I hear Americans in particular complaining that the Chinese government didn't consult before implementing; America has been doing just that for years. For example -- the reason that Americans had to wait 24 hours and give their finger prints for visas for visits to China was because the US did NOT consult China before implementing their discriminatory practices agains Chinese people and requiring them to be finger printed on entry. Tit for tat, I would say. As the most powerful and wealthiest country in the world now, I suspect we are going to see less "consultation" on the part of the Chinese Government and I say so be it -- finally there is a country in the world that can give the US and its citizens their comeuppance !!!! By the way, my experience of working overseas for the past 20 years is that as far as Canada is concerned you only have to produce your criminal record check for when you lived and worked there...you will have to go to the police wherever you have worked subsequently -- and obtain a criminal records check from the local police. So for those that have been working legally in China -- they can go to the local Public Security Bureau -- and get a certificate issued. For those that have not been legally working in China -- they will be out of luck and need to go back to their home country. Even in third world countries -- eg. Africa and parts of South East Asia -- most police departments through INTERPOL have no problem providing criminal record checks. That is my person experience. The Canadian system facilitates this kind of criminal record check and is quite simple if you have lived in your home country:

You go to the nearest Royal Canadian Mounted Police [RCMP] or Provincial Police Station in Quebec and Ontario and request a one page form for a criminal record check…

You complete it and and pay your CAD $26.00 or CAD $27.00 - wait 30 days and you can pick it up. A family member can under certain circumstances also pick it up on your behalf with authorization.

There is no question that it is not convenient to get one but it is possible.

I have to smile when I hear Americans in particular complaining that the Chinese government didn’t consult before implementing; America has been doing just that for years. For example — the reason that Americans had to wait 24 hours and give their finger prints for visas for visits to China was because the US did NOT consult China before implementing their discriminatory practices agains Chinese people and requiring them to be finger printed on entry. Tit for tat, I would say.

As the most powerful and wealthiest country in the world now, I suspect we are going to see less “consultation” on the part of the Chinese Government and I say so be it — finally there is a country in the world that can give the US and its citizens their comeuppance !!!!

By the way, my experience of working overseas for the past 20 years is that as far as Canada is concerned you only have to produce your criminal record check for when you lived and worked there…you will have to go to the police wherever you have worked subsequently — and obtain a criminal records check from the local police. So for those that have been working legally in China — they can go to the local Public Security Bureau — and get a certificate issued. For those that have not been legally working in China — they will be out of luck and need to go back to their home country.

Even in third world countries — eg. Africa and parts of South East Asia — most police departments through INTERPOL have no problem providing criminal record checks. That is my person experience.

]]> By: Chris Devonshire-Ellis http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html/comment-page-1#comment-21955 Chris Devonshire-Ellis Sat, 30 Aug 2008 15:04:30 +0000 http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2008/08/29/china%e2%80%99s-immigration-administration-out-of-whack-with-international-norms.html#comment-21955 This is what we've been able to establish is the situation over the obtaining of "Non criminal record certificates" from various other countries. Clearly, the situation is haphazard and differs considerably from country to country. Applicants for work visas in China are strongly advised to check with their Embassy for facilitation of the new Chinese requests. US Dept Of State: “U.S. law enforcement authorities may not be familiar with such a procedure since it is not commonly requested in the United States”. http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/emergencies/emergencies_1201.html FBI: Takes 18 weeks (four and a half months) to process: http://www.tefllogue.com/finding-a-job/certificate-of-no-criminal-record-for-tefl.html Hong Kong (downloadable form for residents only): http://www.police.gov.hk/hkp-home/english/forms/cncc/172a.doc New Zealand Ministry of Justice: “There is no such document” http://www.justice.govt.nz/privacy/ Singapore: Downloadable form to be presented in person (Singapore residents only) http://www.spf.gov.sg/faqs/doc/cnccform.pdf Australia, New South Wales: 14 days, application in person: http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/about_us/structure/specialist_operations/forensic_services/related_information/criminal_records_section/related_information/frequently_asked_questions/national_criminal_history_record_check#6 UK Home Office: Documentation only available for criminal conviction records, not for no criminal records. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/2004-cons-crb-regulations/draft-statutory-instrument-2.pdf?view=Binary UK advice on other European applicants: http://www.deni.gov.uk/circular_2006-06_appendix_a__checks_on_applicants_from_abroad.pdf Note: UK Police cannot make checks on criminal records of UK nationals who have commited offenses overseas. France: Applicants must apply in person to the Casier Judiciaire National, in Nantes. Documentation available in two weeks. http://www.crb.gov.uk/Default.aspx?page=2325 EU Pilot Scheme (Austria) http://www.epractice.eu/cases/2081 Hungary (3 months) http://www.magyarorszag.hu/english/keyevents/a_alpolg/a_okmany20050822/a_azon20050822/a_erkolcsibiz20061215.html Taiwan (3 days) http://www.ptpolice.gov.tw/English/CmsShow.aspx?Parm=2006121512553437,,1 This is what we’ve been able to establish is the situation over the obtaining of “Non criminal record certificates” from various other countries. Clearly, the situation is haphazard and differs considerably from country to country. Applicants for work visas in China are strongly advised to check with their Embassy for facilitation of the new Chinese requests.

US Dept Of State: “U.S. law enforcement authorities may not be familiar with such a procedure since it is not commonly requested in the United States”.
http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/emergencies/emergencies_1201.html
FBI: Takes 18 weeks (four and a half months) to process: http://www.tefllogue.com/finding-a-job/certificate-of-no-criminal-record-for-tefl.html
Hong Kong (downloadable form for residents only): http://www.police.gov.hk/hkp-home/english/forms/cncc/172a.doc
New Zealand Ministry of Justice: “There is no such document” http://www.justice.govt.nz/privacy/
Singapore: Downloadable form to be presented in person (Singapore residents only) http://www.spf.gov.sg/faqs/doc/cnccform.pdf
Australia, New South Wales: 14 days, application in person: http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/about_us/structure/specialist_operations/forensic_services/related_information/criminal_records_section/related_information/frequently_asked_questions/national_criminal_history_record_check#6
UK Home Office: Documentation only available for criminal conviction records, not for no criminal records.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/2004-cons-crb-regulations/draft-statutory-instrument-2.pdf?view=Binary
UK advice on other European applicants: http://www.deni.gov.uk/circular_2006-06_appendix_a__checks_on_applicants_from_abroad.pdf
Note: UK Police cannot make checks on criminal records of UK nationals who have commited offenses overseas.
France: Applicants must apply in person to the Casier Judiciaire National, in Nantes. Documentation available in two weeks.
http://www.crb.gov.uk/Default.aspx?page=2325
EU Pilot Scheme (Austria) http://www.epractice.eu/cases/2081
Hungary (3 months)
http://www.magyarorszag.hu/english/keyevents/a_alpolg/a_okmany20050822/a_azon20050822/a_erkolcsibiz20061215.html
Taiwan (3 days)
http://www.ptpolice.gov.tw/English/CmsShow.aspx?Parm=2006121512553437,,1

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